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Fleet Battles a thing of the past?

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End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 08:28:00 - [1] Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 08:29:13 Anyone who brings a setup containing shield booster and hardeners for a fleet battle has much bigger problems than laaaag and deserves to die anyway. Not like the shield booster will be running more than one cycle when called primary. Even with zero lag. Making ISK is sooo frickin (too) easy one can make enough for more than one t2 fitted BS(platinum insured one) in a day(just few hours) with ease. So stop whining and start slaving! Not like the other side didn't have the same problems. Maybe they just had "fleet setups" on their ships?!? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:08:00 - [2] Originally by: Drayce Um, did you read the part in his post where he claims that he isn't whining about losing? The point of his post was to find out if everyone was having this issue, not a complaint that his side lost. Did you read the part where he "whined" and "threatened" to quit? Originally by: OP Am I the proud owner of a future [Auction] 10 mil SP Caldari PvP account??? Cause I'm not really interested in continuing if this is the future of eve. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:25:00 - [3] Originally by: Drayce Edited by: Drayce on 28/08/2006 09:13:30 Originally by: End Yourself Did you read the part where he "whined" and "threatened" to quit? Originally by: OP Am I the proud owner of a future [Auction] 10 mil SP Caldari PvP account??? Cause I'm not really interested in continuing if this is the future of eve. I guess we read his post differently. Still no excuse for posting as unconstructively as you did though My post was harsh but it was NOT unconstructive at all. His setup was crap i am pretty sure. It's a good start to know that fact. 90% of the peeps who mount this kind of setups will not wake up if you aren't a bit rude. Lots even will continue mounting them on purpose. Because they do NOT care about their fleet at all. All they care about is their personal assets(in this case the BS) beeing safer(even if it is just <1% safer) And i have been through enough "noob/carebear/leecher/... alliances" to know what i am talking about. Ofc i dunno the OP and can't tell for sure BUT someone who "threatens" to quit does not deserve to be treated with kid gloves at all. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 09:50:00 - [4] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: End Yourself My post was harsh but it was NOT unconstructive at all. His setup was crap i am pretty sure. It's a good start to know that fact. It's completely and utterly irrelevant to know that fact, unless you seriously believe that running a shield booster increases the amount of lag you suffer. If it's not a good thing to know about one's own bad setup so one can change it for the next fleet op and be more effective... well... then... nevermind... i give up. And yes, having been in alliances where a typical pvp setup incl. crap like tractor beams i am a "burnt child". Nice to know that your gangmates are not equipped to be of any help(no EW whatsoever) when you get called primary BUT will be the first to scoop any loot, isn't it? And this paragraph is not aimed at the OP btw. Disclaimer just in case anyone insists on "getting me wrong". And i was as constructive as i could. If he had named his ship type might have even linked to a good setup. Anyway, i'm out. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 10:04:00 - [5] Originally by: Chewan Mesa I think you are talking about the Fleetbattle with us? o.0 I was a bit worried about jumping in but we didnt have much lag at all, some FPS-dropping yeah, but hardly any module-lag. From experience it should've been the other way around though :) Sorry you didnt have a good fight though, was quite fun for us. I think if the jumping in part is done properly(jump in 2 or 3 groups so noone gets emergency warped out, then when everyone is there the gang leader clicks regroup to uncloak everyone at same time) then "(client?)lag should favor" the gang who jumped in. The "defending gang" still has the advantage of beeing at optimum range, aligned at speed allready. And they won't be jumping straight inside an interdictor bubble as well. Of course emergency warps due to jump in lag, peeps crashing while jumping in..... can screw it up badly for the "attackers". --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 11:42:00 - [6] Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 11:45:40 Originally by: Bhaal You're "out", but then you keep yapping crap... Til now i have made one post after the "i'm out"-statement which was meant as i'm out of the fitting discussion. THIS POST Pls point me to a single tiny amount of "crap" in that post. Btw just for your interest i have just watched the video and had a look at all BS kills on beagle killboard. Judging by the BS killmails out of 10 BS killed total 7 were fitted... well... let's say suboptimal. Megathron full of cap rechargers. All ravens "shield tanked". One Raven with tractor beam as well, yay. The other 3 killed BS had good fleet fittings. This battle would have been lost without lag as well. Blaming lag is allways nice and easy. It won't help you to win the next fleetbattle though. By the way those 3 BS are IRON. The other 7 are not. Might want to ask your allies for help with fleet setups. And if you insist on fitting shield hardeners and boosters to your fleet battle ravens(i would suggest taking a scorp instead btw, raven is a nice ship for smaller gangs but that's about it) at least have the hardeners running and don't think you will have time to activate them once called primary. I'd suggest "exploiting" ECM as long as it isn't "fixed" instead of tanking though. The OP btw was in "shield tanked moa"(ok, one multispec) during the fight. He was one of the first to die. Just one minute after the first takedown. My educated guess is that he got pretty much instapopped. And the laaag he was experiencing was pretty much just himself getting into his pod. I'd say just bad luck being one of the first targets. Cruisers don't survive "very long" once under fire. And yes, i'm out now finally. IRON got a good list of suggested fleet setups for all kind of ships. Seen it myself and can only recommend approaching them. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Bhaal What's your point? That they would have lost due to improper fittings even if there was no lag? Fine, but that's not the problem here now is it? They could be lying about the lag, but even if that is true, we all know the lag is there, and it's a game killer... Well one of my points is that i'm still unsure if there was that bad lag at all. I don't say _he_ is lying. I said a moa(which the OP happened to be flying) is an instapop for a few BS. Also he seemed to be unlucky to be one of the first who got shot at. Not very concentrated fire but 2 BS down a cruiser within no time. And being popped during a battle there is bad lag entering your pod. His client prolly showed him still in his ship while he was not anymore. And can't activate mods in that case of course. Extremely one sided lag doesnt make sense to me. And he was talking about module activation lag. There of course are situations where lag favors one side. Fighting at a POS for example. But that isn't because one side('s pilot) has uber lag and the other's doesn't. It is because POS guns are not affected by lag. And well usually only one side has guns at the POS. Almost everyone seems to have a problem with lag nowadays. We know one of the main reasons. Still a thread i started today just as a test seems to further confirm my opinion that noone is willing to sacrifice a single of his bookmarks for a better EvE experience. Everyone prolly just feels he as an individual can't achieve anything anyway. Just like in RL. :/ And don't tell me RA will create 10 new bms for every one you delete anyway. j/k --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr To be honest End, you can't talk about fittings and tactics of other corps. Your corp gets a kill or two every 3 or so days if that (if you KB is anything to go by) and the rest of your corp fits 4 stabs onto most BS. Now fine if you want to run away, but stabs arn't going to win you any prizes for the best tank fit on Domi's and 'geddon's. Still very bitter about beeing smartbombed by a stabbed geddon? Sitting like a sitting duck at warpin point to planet in ceptor 4tw i'd say. That tank setups are NOT the way to go for fleets is well known. That cap rechargers in med slots are NOT the way to go for pvp... That a tractor beam is pretty useless in pvp... I really think we do NOT have to discuss this phrix. You know these 3 "secrets" as well as i do. And i really don't want to derail this thread to discuss our corp's issues. There is nothing to discuss anyway. we > you --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 12:57:00 - [9] Originally by: Bhaal You already derailed the thread way back when you started *****ing about fittings, why stop now? Maybe but just maybe because weewee/OC and TCD propaganda will not help FLA(and friends) to do better next time. And OC/TCD issues will not be discussed anywhere in public anyway, at least not by us. I am still pretty sure that this fight was not lost due to lag. Even if it might have appeared like it to the OP getting instapopped in his cruiser. BTW if the OP was lagged out that badly pls explain to me how he got at least onto one killmail? And how many bms did you delete yet Bhaal? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 14:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Goberth Ludwig Lmao what a huge troll. Total shame on you. Somehow i doubt you would like to command a gang/fleet consisting 70% of this kind of setups. But guess you did not read the thread anyway gob. C'mon tell me you can't be bothered. Originally by: Bhaal What?Few months back I had ZERO BM's, as I deleted them all...But my Corp/Alliance doesn't like that very much...I hate BM's, but not sure why you asked me this... If you don't know why i asked then you prolly just overlooked my reply to your earlier post. Bookmarks are at least according to CCP the root of lag. Still noone is willing to delete some of his own precious. I'm "babysitting" accounts of friends during vacation alot atm and nearly ALL have those redundant or useless bookmarks. I had them too before i decided to delete as many as i can this weekend. If most of us would get rid of some, it would allready help alot, at least for a while til CCP comes up with a solution. My p&p even loads in less than "half an hour" now. link to thread just to keep bm discussion out of here, anyone who still thinks i'm just trolling in here feel free to troll in "my thread" as well Originally by: Valtaer One more thing. I know in a cruiser you could have 7 hardeners and still get insta popped by a fleet that size... the thing I was trying to figure is was it just insta pop lag that you get when you enter your pod in a fleet battle or was I actually doing something and it just wasn't registering. I knew it would start this long string of posting but I was seriously curious. If I ended up on a kill mail (which I didn't know) then I must have been shooting at something Sorry if the first post was a "tad" harsh, think i made pretty clear it wasn't about trolling later. As i said earlier allready i guess you were just facing a combination of usual few seconds lag when they uncloaked all at the same time using gang commands, bad luck beeing one of the first targets while flying only a cruiser and alot more lag when entering your capsule. Btw regarding your earlier statement that you would have lost anyway due to having mainly missile boats: It was a short range slugfest as you can see in the video. If all your Ravens and Scorps would have been fitted with(overpowered) ECM you would have not only gave em a good fight but "won" imho. Torp Ravens are bad for the usual fleet fight(200km+, t2 guns+ammo....) but at 0-20km they own. The hostile gunboats were even mainly long range ones so there tracking is bad at close range. Wasn't you who decided what to fit on the Ravens of course. As for quitting there is no problem with people quitting, if they don't like the game. "Threatening" to quit on the forums is unacceptable imho. It's not like CCP doesn't know about the problem and i am pretty sure trying to do their best to solve it. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 14:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: If you don't know why i asked then you prolly just overlooked my reply to your earlier post. Bookmarks are at least according to CCP the root of lag. Still noone is willing to delete some of his own precious. I'm "babysitting" accounts of friends during vacation alot atm and nearly ALL have those redundant or useless bookmarks. I had them too before i decided to delete as many as i can this weekend. If most of us would get rid of some, it would allready help alot, at least for a while til CCP comes up with a solution. My p&p even loads in less than "half an hour" now. Ok, I thought you meant that somehow I, or players like me are going around purposely causing lag via BM's during a fleet battle... No, I hate BM's I wish CCP would abolish them totally and go with the star chart idea... Explorers make star charts via scans, copy them with skills & such, sell on the market and those charts degrade over time. Every celestial object in the system at the time of scan becomes a 0km warpable object. Charts last for 3 months before you need to upgrade... Oh, and you have a star chart tab in P&P with subsequent Corp & Alliance tabs. Your corp or alliance can place all the starcharts in the corp HQ hangar and everyone can acces the chart, and don't have to have their own... It's a great idea... The idea is better than just adding a "warp to at 0km" option but both have the same flaw imho: They nerf "sucking bubbles" into oblivion. Usually you just have gate to gate bookmarks in most systems so setting up a sucking bubble(esp. in systems with only two gates) is highly likely to catch someone, stop slow moving ships from getting through your camp at all....... If you can instawarp on top of the gate from every direction in a system by just using warp at 0km one can just forget about sucking bubbles, might catch an afk traveller but that could be caught without bubble anyway. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Bhaal That's why a while back I proposed an upgrade to warp bubbles, probes, etc... Being able to triangulate 3-6-9-12 of them 100's of km's apart and making a net... Not just at a gate either, but anywhere in system, and anyone warping through gets pulled out, not just sucked into a bubble at the end of warp... Then sentry guns could be eliminated from low sec gates IMO... Idea sound really cool. I'm not a big fan of camping for hours though so deploying this nets would have to be done very quick. Different type of interdiction sphere maybe. Or just 3 ganged ships dropping one bubble each to form such a net instantly. Also sadly opening a can of worms problem as mentioned before. Fix bugs and lag first. Then cool changes. Thought about the starchart idea some more. basic charts which just allow gate->gate travel, more expensive medium charts for gate to gate, station to gate and gate to station and VERY expensive highend charts which allow 0km warp from anywhere would maybe a good idea. So one would end up with the high end ones for your home region, medium ones for surrounding space and basic for everywhere else. I'd prefer them to be sold by NPC tho, really need some more ISK sinks. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:21:00 - [13] /me looks innocent Just in case anyone considers the thread derailed i blame bhaal, lol --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Bhaal Yeah, but the whole point is that of exploration, and another profession... Point is, if BM's are the major lag contributor in fleet battles, they need go! I had zero BM's and thought that was great, until I had to travel anywhere, go on an op and then have to log out for dinner and have no BM's to get home, etc... I envision, system, constellation, region star charts being compiled by explorer's who get a nice bit of profit for their craft... (once he gets a chart he can only copy it a few times) When you log into the game, the system checks your corp, your alliance, and what star charts you have. Then when you log in the game knows what you can warp to at 0km... (don't know if this is even possible) And no, these warp disruption nets would not be able to be setup fast... If you're chasing someone, you need to have friends ahead with sufficient skills & whatnot to setup a proper "road block", etc... Well making(setting them up, not copying) bookmarks was a "profession". And it even required some skills(RL skills) to do so. If you got any ideas how to make it an exciting profession i'd be up for it. Well not personally. But i guess it would just be another tedious thing as exciting as mining ice in jita. Well due to suicide attacks in highsec prolly even less exciting. Maybe as a compromise make NPC sell starcharts on market in empire. Make them available via agent missions in NPC .0 space(stain, fountain......) And add a "new" profession by allowing players to make charts of player owned .0 space. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 15:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Yeah, but the whole point is that of exploration, and another profession... Point is, if BM's are the major lag contributor in fleet battles, they need go! I had zero BM's and thought that was great, until I had to travel anywhere, go on an op and then have to log out for dinner and have no BM's to get home, etc... I envision, system, constellation, region star charts being compiled by explorer's who get a nice bit of profit for their craft... (once he gets a chart he can only copy it a few times) When you log into the game, the system checks your corp, your alliance, and what star charts you have. Then when you log in the game knows what you can warp to at 0km... (don't know if this is even possible) And no, these warp disruption nets would not be able to be setup fast... If you're chasing someone, you need to have friends ahead with sufficient skills & whatnot to setup a proper "road block", etc... Well making(setting them up, not copying) bookmarks was a "profession". And it even required some skills(RL skills) to do so. If you got any ideas how to make it an exciting profession i'd be up for it. Well not personally. But i guess it would just be another tedious thing as exciting as mining ice in jita. Well due to suicide attacks in highsec prolly even less exciting. Maybe as a compromise make NPC sell starcharts on market in empire. Make them available via agent missions in NPC .0 space(stain, fountain......) And add a "new" profession by allowing players to make charts of player owned .0 space. In any event, do we even know that BM's are the root cause to the lag? When I first got to 0.0, I used to be in 100 vs. 100 (or more) fleet battles... Even this does not seem possible anymore... Is this because of simply more players, or more BM's? What's the root cause(s) of the lag? And I will not accept "lag is part of every MMO, deal with it" No, I won't deal with it. And if EVE is to have 200k players someday, they won't "deal" with it either, as there will be no more EVE... Replied to wrong post/thread?!? Well nobody knows but CCP say they are causing alot of lag. Guess we simply have to trust em. It makes sense after all. Ages ago there were alot less players so with same bms/player it would have been alot less bms allready. And i'm pretty sure the average player had alot of less bms back then as well. Lots even did not happen to have any at all or even didn't know what instas are at all. I personally would really be up to try removing all bms and the possibility to create them for a week. Gameplay would be alot different of course(very slow moving BS gangs....) but a change every now and then is allways nice. And it would be just for one week so every carebear who really can't feel safe without bms can stay in highsec for that time. At least after that week we would be wiser. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 16:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... Well CCP says so. Our options are to either trust them. Or to ask them to test it for a week. On Tranquility. My opinion is test it. Should be fun as well to have to adapt to completely different kind of gate camping/pvp for a week. And remind alot of the old farts of the good old times when 99% of eve was flying without instas. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:25:00 - [17] Edited by: End Yourself on 28/08/2006 17:26:08 Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Replied to wrong post/thread?!? No, I really want to know if the lag is due mainly to BM's, or if there are so many other contributing factors to the lag that removing BM's isn't the cure-all we all think it is... Well CCP says so. Our options are to either trust them. Or to ask them to test it for a week. On Tranquility. My opinion is test it. Should be fun as well to have to adapt to completely different kind of gate camping/pvp for a week. And remind alot of the old farts of the good old times when 99% of eve was flying without instas. I think to get a good test you'd want to do it for a month or so... A week might not allow alliances to adjust and engage in fleet battles... (only gives one weekend) err i did not mean test what consequences an eve without instas would have regarding pvp. What i meant was test how the server load changes when instas are no more. See if lag is still as bad as before.... One week should be enough for that i think. Hell could even add a warp to 0km option for a week if that is what is needed to test load properly. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 17:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: End Yourself What i meant was test how the server load changes when instas are no more. See if lag is still as bad as before.... One week should be enough for that i think. Hell could even add a warp to 0km option for a week if that is what is needed to test load properly. Well, if one Sunday is a enough to test that, fine I guess... I assume if that were implemented, you'd see a lot less players online during that week, and less corp/alliance fleet movement... So might not be a fair comparison to the status quo... You read the part about the 0km warp option? --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

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